Talk:Muslim Conquest of Persia
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Talk:Muslim Conquest of Persia


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Cheers.--cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This paper shows significant climate cooling at the time, possibly affecting people in the region. Also, the Plague of Justinian article mentions losses in the Sassanian empire. TGCP (talk) 13:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia redirect page

I noticed that Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia redirects to this article, although it is mainly about Persia, not Mesopotamia. Would there be a more suitable target for this redirect page? Jarble (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

That's because Mesopotamia was entirely under the Persian sway until the Arab Muslim conquest. Thus, the redirect is correct. However, the article is quality/quantity wise still in quite a dire state, and in the future a separate subsection regarding the Arab operations in Mesopotamia should be added. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Edit; I just checked it once again, there is already in fact a subsection on this page regarding the conquest of Mesopotamia. But as I told as it was simply a part of Sasanian Persia, and was in fact its core region (the Sasanian capital was located in Mesopotamia) there is, in my opinion, no need for a redirect to that subsection. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Would "Rashidun conquest of Persia" work as a title?

I saw some commentary by User:IranianNationalist at User talk:Jimbo Wales recently. Clearly there's something contentious about the "Arab" or "Muslim" portion of the current title, though I don't necessarily understand the issue. But it seems to me like the effect of the conquest was to put the Rashidun Caliphate in charge, so would "Rashidun conquest", with the ethnicity and religion that implies, make the most sense?

Admittedly there's a problem that I see very few search results for "Rashidun conquest of Persia", and it's possible I'm just suggesting something stupid. Wnt (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title looks quite bizarre to me. --Z 18:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The title doesn't look bizarre, because the word Muslims and Arabs have been the mainstream words used Historians. In discussing Rashidun and Muhammad. So I have no objection. Yet I don't think there is any racist ideas, the Iranian popflock.com resource are having a discussion about the title. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • "Arab conquest of Persia" and "Arab conquest of Iran" are the most common titles in reliable sources. Iranica used "Arab conquest of Iran", and The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4 also used "The Arab conquest of Iran and its aftermath". These two sources are among the most reliable sources for history of Iran. Other reliable sources in Google Books also used "Arab conquest of Persia" and "Arab conquest of Iran" more than anything else:

So, according to WP:COMMONNAME, In my opinion the title should be "Arab conquest of Persia" (or Iran). -- Kouhi (talk) 06:05, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

You are being lawyer/WP:LAWYER here, there shouldn't be any change not a drastic one from Muslim to Arab, or Persia to Iran. The article is fine. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 06:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
If you believe the article is fine, may I ask what's your point in saying "I have no objection [to Rashidun...]"? Also, it is not "Iranian Wikipedia", it is Persian or more natively, Farsi popflock.com resource (the Persian popflock.com resource has nothing to do with Iran or any other country). -- Kouhi (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Because Rashidun is just detailed form of Muslim, that is why I didn't have an objection, yet it will create a domino effect on other Muslim conquest articles, since Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid are inter connected in their conquest. Muslim conquest of Transoxiana is a great example, occurred mostly in Umayyad era and ended during the first years of Abbasid era. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
The title in Persian popflock.com resource is the "Arab invasion of Iran", which is the common way of refering to the event in Persian. However, it is an inaccurate title, as there have been some Arabs on the side of Persia, and as far as the English Wikipedia's article is concerned, "Rashidun ..." is not a common title either. I think "Muslim" is the best word for the English article. --Z 20:22, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
And there were also some non-Muslim Iranians on the side of Arab Muslims, so in the same way, "Muslim" is also inaccurate. -- Kouhi (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi there
There are some notes :

  1. The title of the Farsi article is not "Arab Conquest of Persia" nor "Muslim Conquest of Persia" but it is exactly "Invasion to Iran by Arabs(or Arab people, having same meaning)". AFAIK the adjective "Arab" before the noun "Conquest" is same as Arabic Conquest not Conquest by Arabs or Arab people. I don't assume the title "Muslim Conquest of Persia" to be a racist title. It was the starting point of developing Islamic state of Muhammad(Medina Islamic government as it is approved by Iyad Jamal Al-Din during the Al Arabiya's debate too [IrN1 1][IrN1 2]) after his death(Muhammad's death) however Muslim Conquest of Levant was started during his life too.
  2. @Kouhi: Who was the non-Muslim on the side of Arab Muslims? Do you mean Salman the Persian? He was not an Arab but he was a Muslim. Were he not a Muslim? Sorry but your claim is a few weird because you say there were non-Muslims fighting in the army of Islamic state in the first Hijri century. In WikiFa you were claiming the Arab Conquest doesn't mean Arabic Conquest and you were insisting on the Invasion to Iran by Arabs but now you've used "Arab Muslims" yourself? How is it an adjective now?
  3. As I said in WikiFa repetitively Arabic tensions between Arab nations such as Lakhmids and Sassanian empire backs to more than one century before Islam thus if we say tensions between Arabs and Sassanids started by Muslims(as it's said in wikifa article) it will be wrong historically too.
  4. Muslim Conquest of Persia is a good title but it must be used in WikiFa too ? ? ? and not ? .

I add a note : in the discussion in WikiFa we had some insult to Arab people by those were backing the title Invasion to Iran by Arabs, I'm sorry, but the partial user had said the "lizard-eater Arabs". As I know today in Iran we have a policy to Islamicize :) the Persian figures such as Cyrus (Making him a Basij figure). Similar to Safavids trying to misuse Islam politically. It is normal the statesmen in Iran having faith to Ayatollah Islamic state to try to avoid Muslim adjective in the title Muslim Conquest of Persia and insisting on Arabs. Last year, We had a famous speaking in Iranian TV channel 1 by a famous actor, Akbar Abdi who had a close relation to Islamic state of Iran about the movie Ekhrajiha and he told a story about Hajj and humiliated Arabs totally regardless of the subject that the Arabic peninsula of Saudi Arabia is not the only Arab nations and we have many Arab countrymen inside Iran. Yes I approve the respectful title Sayyid is a part of a dirty racist system but it doesn't mean to take another racist viewpoint against Arabs and it doesn't matter it is said in some partial or inaccurate sources or not. Arab and Ajam is a different discussion.

--IranianNationalist (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I wasn't that user in fawiki whom IranianNationalist claims[] insulted Arabs. And you IranianNationalist, you better keep the affairs of fawiki in fawiki. You have been already banned in fawiki for making personal attacks, so just for the sake of your account, don't involve yourself in irrelevant discussions that may end up in another blocking for you, and be more considerate to not say anything against anyone and any religion. Pages in English popflock.com resource are named based on WP:NAMING, not based on a series of irrelevant statements about Islam and Iran, so just make your points based on that rules and reliable sources you have. And one another thing, I'm free to use every word and term I like and that's none of your business, nonetheless, nevermind, I don't have enough time to spare on this, specially I won't talk with you as long as you can't avoid personal attacks. So, watch your tongue or I will report you to the administrators. Good luck. -- Kouhi (talk) 20:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@IranianNationalist: Without non-Muslim Iranians the conquest would have been hard, I'm sure you are aware of the various land owners from Faris, Khurasan and Mawarannahr who have made deals with the Rashidun and Umayyad territories, after all who killed the last Sassanid King in the great city of Marw? The point is there are many wars where the naming convention will be hard to apply. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@Kouhi 1. In Wiki English those watching Wales' user talk page know every thing about your complaint and that inactive admin account in WikiFa who suddenly became active to block me for 2 days. 2. Again same as WikiFa I warn you to not attribute your lies to other users because here again no one claimed about you to insulting Arabs however you said something different in Farsi discussion which was not an insult so be aware here because English admins will not support you. --IranianNationalist (talk) 22:43, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@Alexis Ivanov: The final result was the Muslim Conquest of Persia whether Muslims used some other non-Muslims traitors or not. But with regard to the inflaming of Persian libraries by Rashidun or selling slaves it was absolutely an invasion (Similar to ISIS because some people helped them too). Anyway Conquest or Invasion the discussion was about Arabs or Muslims. How can an article have a completely different title in WikiFa versus WikiEn? The problem is about Arabs and it seems that you Alexis Ivanov approve that non-Arabs as you said non-Muslims helped Muslims to conquer Persia. --IranianNationalist (talk) 23:07, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@IranianNationalist: You can't be a traitor towards a failed and incompetent king. ? Did you expect them to muster an army from Khurasan, maybe in hollywood, not in real-life they just murdered him and reduced his suffering. How is Rashidun Caliphate similar to ISIS? Having the same religion and selling slaves, just simplistic categories that you intentionally cherry picked, nice move. Articles in every language popflock.com resource can have different translations and meaning to different languages it occurs, it is something natural. Also How can I approve that certain people from 7th century helped another group. It just occurred I never gave any approval, maybe if I can time travel? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I repeat, as I said previously, "invasion" or "conquest" it's not important but the important case is Arabs vs Muslims. But about ISIS as we know (I hope you too) the verses 23 and 24 of Nisa' in Quran clarifies the rape of married imprisoned women by Muslims(blievers). As we know ISIS applies the fundamental of Quran, what we had (as the people of the earth) in Saudi Arabia and also in Iran(Shiraz for example) about cutting the hands of thief off and we call it as Islamic Fundamentalism (same as other current terrorist Islamic groups or Sadegh Khakhali In Iran and those who made executions in Iran). Are you a Muslim? You think different about Islam? So you are not a Muslim. I know Islam and Islamic society from inside (regardless to Islamic regimes) whether Shiite or Sunni.
You had said there were non-Muslims helped Muslim army during the conquest of Persia, so, clearly you approved there were non-Arabs helped Muslim army, is this not the conclusion of your comment? Because the discussion is about racism and what I'm talking about is : Arabs were not the only invaders to Persia (or new name Iran as it's been said in WikiFa) in that time and the tensions between Arabs and Ajams have a background from Lakhmids and even older. But about Muslims the conclusion of the invasion to Persia by Islamic empire (Caliphate) was the Conquest of Persia (It is clear) and they might have the accompany of non-Muslims as the same thing we have about other invasions in other centuries (for example Lotf Ali Khan and Ebrahim Kalantar Shirazi) and it will not change the name of that invasion or overthrow of an empire. Jizya is one of the proofs of the Islamic Invasion to Iran. --IranianNationalist (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 26 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The move request has gone on for six weeks with no consensus being formed over that time scale; hence, the article cannot be moved to the requested title, regardless of the problems with the current title. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 18:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)



Muslim conquest of Persia -> Arab conquest of Iran - Per the sources --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 04:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 22:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
[1]

References

  1. ^
  • Oppose Neutral, but I think the current title is perfectly appropriate. It wan't called "Iran" at the time. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
@Rreagan007: The sources literally contradict you. It was the official name of the Sasanian Empire, and its usage even dates back to the Achaemenid period; for more detail, see Birth of the Persian Empire by Vesta Sarkhosh and Sarah Stewart. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
After a little research on the topic, you appear to be correct. Though I will say that "Persia" tends to be the common English name for the area prior to the 20th century, but I won't oppose the nomination. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
  1. Jstor search: "Muslim conquest of Persia" gets 6,033 hits, "Arab conquest of Iran" gets 9,579.
  2. Google books search: "Muslim conquest of Persia" gets 37,300 hits, "Arab conquest of Iran" gets 62,100.
  3. Google scholar search: "Muslim conquest of Persia" 56.400 hits, "Arab conquest of Iran" gets 66.000.

- LouisAragon (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Louis, you can't just search for the set of words (as you have), you have to search for the exact phrase. (The results are much smaller, but they still show the same trend.) Srnec (talk) 01:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
For the record, the corrected Google Scholar numbers (with quotes), are: 717 for "Arab conquest of Iran", 201 for "Muslim conquest of Persia". For Google books, here are the ngrams. Colin M (talk) 14:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Per WP:COMMONNAME and the above search results.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, the "Arab Empire" never existed. It was a Muslim conquest indeed. However, I support the "Muslim conquest of Iran". Aryzad (talk) 15:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@Aryzad: Where do you see the "Arab Empire" being mentioned? Neither me nor the sources which support my move makes any mention of a "Arab Empire". --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:13, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: When there is no Arab Empire, then there is no Arab conquest. When it comes to this war, we are talking about Muslims, not Arabs. Most of the Muslims were Arab at the time, but still we are talking about Muslims. Aryzad (talk) 01:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Wut? It was still Arabs that led the conquests though. A clear majority of them were Arabs from the Arabian penilusuela. Also the sources contradict you. HistoryofIran (talk)
Look, this was done by an Islamic Caliphate; Then this a Muslim conquest, not an Arab one. This is simple. All of those sources were written from a modern point of view. When that state wasn't called this way, why you have to move it to "Arab conquest"? The "Muslim conquest of Iran" is perfect title for this article Aryzad (talk) 02:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
So far you have up with nothing than your personal opinion with no source whatsoever to support you. HistoryofIran (talk)
And more than that is not needed Because:
  1. COMMONNAME says "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." The Muslim Empire was called , and not ?; Which makes the "Arab conquest" inaccurate.
  2. We still have Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent, Muslim conquest of the Levant, Muslim conquests of Afghanistan, Muslim conquest of Sicily, Muslim conquest of Egypt, Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, Muslim conquest of Transoxiana, Muslim conquest of Armenia, etc. You cannot just change title of one article, while rest of them use another one.
  3. You need reliable sources that support your claim about existence of an Arab Empire (which is the only case when "Arab conquest of somewhere" can be used), and proves that the Caliphates were called the Arab Empire by the Caliphs themselves. Majority of the soldiers of the early Muslims were Arab, but so what? Their empire was Islamic. Aryzad (talk) 13:56, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Could you please stop to say it like that I'm making claims that it was an "Arab Empire". There are literally 8 sources and more that support the spelling, thus its pretty common and makes your personal opinion quite irrelevant. The Caliphate was still ethnically Arab per the sources. Im done here. HistoryofIran (talk)
Probably you don't understand why I say you need to prove that it was called the Arab Empire. Maybe this is because of the fact that I'm not fluent in English to explain it clearly, or for another reason. Anyway, when you changed all of those article to the "Arab conquest of ...", then feel free to change this one too. Aryzad (talk) 16:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It was indeed a Muslim conquest of Persia, as it is invariably referred to before the earlyish 20th century in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, before the early 20th-century. It's what it is currently called in this day and age that is important (which is indeed per the sources "Arab conquest of Iran", which some people seem to ignore..). --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
You misunderstand me. When referring to the country before the 1920s or thereabouts, it is still common to refer to it as Persia. Just as we don't refer to Istanbul before the 1920s, as it was commonly called Constantinople in the west before then. It may be seen as politically correct to refer to the country as Iran throughout its history, and some historians now do, but it is certainly not its common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh, well that makes more sense. Anyways; As someone who has contributed heavily to Iranian-related articles and thus possess many sources regarding the country, I would say that I disagree, and argue that Iran more or less is used just as much pre-1920 in more recent times, if not more in some some cases. The sources are a pretty good example of that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Necrothesp: So why is then that Google Scholar, JSTOR, and Google books yield more results for "Arab conquest of Iran" than "Muslim conquest of Persia"? Per WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)." - LouisAragon (talk) 13:55, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Simple. Many of these results refer to books that are either by Iranians (who prefer the modern name to the older European name, just as Turkish scholars tend to refer to Istanbul throughout and not Constantinople) or detail the whole history of Iran (as it is today) and therefore use Iran throughout. Proves nothing whatsoever, as these sorts of searches usually don't. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "Many of these results refer to books that are either by Iranians (who prefer the modern name to the older European name, just as Turkish scholars tend to refer to Istanbul throughout and not Constantinople) or detail the whole history of Iran (as it is today) and therefore use Iran throughout."
Do you have proof for these bold statements? - LouisAragon (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Actually look at the results that come up. It's pretty obvious. It's also pretty obvious that Iranian scholars are going to prefer to call the country Iran instead of the name it was given in the West for so long (again, I refer you to the case of Istanbul - you won't get many modern Turkish scholars calling the city Constantinople even pre-1920s, but we do because that's the name Western scholars tend to use and anything else would be revisionism, as here). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:38, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

+--------------------+If we accept your claims, by what reading of policy do they imply that we should reject the move? WP:COMMONNAME doesn't say we should use the name most commonly used in English language reliable sources except for ones written by Iranians. If your claim is that the works by Iranian scholars are, on average, of lower quality, and that the highest quality, most reliable sources on this historical period use the current name, perhaps you could provide some positive evidence of this. Colin M (talk) 18:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course I'm not saying Iranian sources are lower-quality. I'm saying that works by Iranian scholars are unlikely to be indicative of the name of the country as used by native English-speakers. And this is English Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, that's just not correct. I have seen Iranian scholars use the term "Persia" as well. I'm sorry, but to me it seems like you're making a lot of bold assumptions and claims that have no weight. Even if you were correct, then that doesn't change the fact that we have WP:COMMONNAME. And "Arab conquest of Iran" is clearly the most used version. At the end of the day, scholars, whatever their ethnicity, tend to follow the scholarly consensus, which is indeed the afromentioned spelling. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose agree with what Necrothesp said.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: So far see I'm seeing personal opinions rather than actual counter-arguments to my argument supported by academic sources, nice. I do hope WP:DEMOCRACY is being held in mind here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. It is weird, really, the counter-argument for the renaming of the article is. "Arab conquest of Iran" is more academically used term than the current one. Nabataeus (talk) 00:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per my own searches. I am not unsympathetic to the oppose votes, considering the general reader. I do think "Iran" as the universal name for Persia has been slow to make its way out of the academy and into the vernacular. I suspect for most English-speakers it is still very strongly associated with the present Islamic republic to the exclusion of earlier history. A compromise option would be to use the name of our article on the state (Sasanian Empire). That article has a 60/40 preference for Persia- forms over Iran- ones. Srnec (talk) 01:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • According to Sandra Mackey in The Iranians: Persia, Islam and the Soul of a Nation (well worth the read by the way) the 10th/11th Century poet Ferdowsi, wrote in the SHAHNAMEH: Persian Book of Kings a lament about the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah in which Ferdowsi lamented the conquest by the Arabs, but not the Islamization of Persia. They apparently separate as two distinct things . My copy of the book is in storage, regretably so I come at it from failing memory,however the Iranian Encylopedia Online, http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/arab-ii refers to it as the Muslim Conquest of Iran.. The Shia-Sunni conflict is hard for outsiders to wrap their mind around. There is the lament about Arabization of the Iranian culture,but acceptance of a Salafist "light" form of Islam, and of course Arab script. (Adulterers are still stoned and profaners and other "criminals" are hung from cranes, in that regard the Saudi beheading is more humane, apparently the title/description depends upon which side of the fence one sits. Sunni (Arab) or Shia (Iranian) Oldperson (talk) 17:26, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, a religion cannot act on its own. Also, the term "conquest" is ambiguous when a religion is "doing" the conquering. For example, one might say that Buddhism "conquered" China but it did so without much violence--actual conquering. Finally, without a doubt most of the Arabs doing the conquering of Persia were not in it for the saving of souls; they were in it for the loot. Abductive (reasoning) 07:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I've been sitting on the fence regarding this question, as I am not a specialist, and I will only answer as a uninvolved general reader/contributor of popflock.com resource who would just happen to encounter this proposed title. My apologies to the nominator. My main issue is that the proposed title "Arab conquest of Iran" totally lacks historical markers and has terrible modern-day resonances, and therefore is very fraught to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by the general reader. This is more important to me than usage ratios by academic sources, which each have their own context:
1) To the casual reader, "Arab conquest of Iran" could very well be referring to the Iraq-Iran War (1980-1988), in which Arabs arguably conquered (or at least tried to conquer) parts of Iran.
2) "Arab conquest of Iran" could very well be the claim of some Iranian nationalistic media complaining about the rising influence of Arabs in Iran (how about Saudi Arabians for example?). From this point of view it sounds just like some racist/ nationalistic slogans heard in the West, like "Arabs are invading the United States" or the "Arab conquest of Great Britain", "Arab conquest of Western civilization" etc....
3) I think instances of Muslim invasions in the past often do take into account this issue of historicity in the title (but I am sure there are counter-examples): for Spain, it is "Umayyad conquest of Hispania", not "Arab conquest of Spain", for France it is "Umayyad invasion of Gaul" not "Arab conquest of France" which would be a Marine Le Pen slogan I guess, for North Africa it is Muslim conquest of the Maghreb etc...
4) Again I am not a specialist, but "Arab" is an ethnicity, and I am pretty certain that other ethnicities were included in this invasion (Levantines, North Africans?) as they were part of the Rashidun Caliphate. Actually, what they had in common was not ethnicity but the Muslim faith, or at the very least Islamic rule....
I am very well aware that this is apparently a heated debate, and oppose voices are being pounced on. So please be aware that this is just an uninvolved outsider's candid opinion, and that I do not intend to respond to any comment. Thank you! ? Pat (talk) 15:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Never once has the Iraq-Iran war been referrred as the "Arab conquest of Iran". The goal of the Iraqis throughout the war was to "reclaim" Khuzestan, which they ultimately failed. Anyways this is completely irrelevant and random. The same especially goes for argument 2. For argument 3, what is written or not on other popflock.com resource pages is not a legit reason for inclusion, per WP:CIRCULAR. For argument 4, no entity is "pure", however it is no secret that the bulk of the conquerors were Arab, and that the Caliphate was essentially an Arab Empire until the establishment of the Abbasids (per sources such as [1]). I would appreciate if people stopped coming up with their own personal assumptions (without even a single source to support it) and actually tried to refute my arguments and the sources up above, thanks. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Most importantly because several reliable (and scholarly) sources have been presented that refer to the proposed name, while no such caliber sources have been provided which use the current name. Actually, no reliable sources whatsoever have been presented in this discussion that support 'Muslim conquest of Persia'. Most of the 'oppose' arguments are irrelevant: the Caliphate didn't have to be called an "Arab Empire" in order to call this an "Arab conquest". As for the synonymous 'Iran' vs. 'Persia', both are familiar to the modern English reader, except one is an outdated term for the country/historic super-region and the other is current and also preferred by the modern sources. I will say that Iran typically is not used in reference to Iraq/Lower Mesopotamia, the conquest of which is included in this article. That's why for precision's sake we should probably use 'Sasanian Empire', but then the argument could be raised that the Sasanian Empire is far less recognized by the average reader than either Iran or Persia. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose It was a "Muslim" conquest, not an Arab conquest. Arabs (Lakhmids) had conquered parts of Persia before, but were themselves defeated and annexed into Persia, well before the Muslim conquest. Indeed, the Muslim conquest of Persia began as an attempt to conquer the Arab parts of Persia. And then it sort of just kept going. The "Muslims" were a movement among peninsular Arabs, yes. But not all Arabs were peninsular Arabs (there were Lakhmid Arabs in Persia, Ghassanid Arabs in Syria). And of course, not all Arabs were Muslims (nor are they today - there are Christian Arabs, etc.). The conquest described in this article is very specifically the Muslim conquest, not the Lakhmid conquest, nor does it involve any non-Muslim Arabs. Changing the title would be very misleading. Walrasiad (talk) 07:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
    Support. Arab is an ethnicity defined by the native language of the speaker. It is not a race or religion, unlike Judaism which is not a race, but an ethnicity defined by the religion of the person, and not it's native language. At the time of the Arab conquest of Persia, the Arabs were Muslims. The Umayyad Caliphate perceived Islam to be an Arab only religion, and made it difficult if not impossible for non Muslims to convert, they needed and wanted the jizzyah (poll tax) that dhimmi's had to pay. In any event, it was an Arab conquest, whether there were any non Muslim infantry or cavalry is irrelevant.Oldperson (talk) 15:37, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
    I agree with you. "Caliphate conquest of Sasanian Empire" may be a better proposal. Benyamin-ln (talk) 15:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
"The Arabs were Muslims"? But that is simply not true. Just because the Muslims at the time were Arabs, the converse doesn't hold. At the time, most Arabs were Christians, Zoroastrians, Polytheists, etc., and remained so for a while, even in areas conquered by the Muslims. Heck, many Arabs remain Christians today. Arabs and Muslims are not synonymous. I'm not sure what the relevance of Umayyads are at this point (and your point is untrue). And not sure what you mean by "impossible" for non-Muslims to convert (also untrue, and at any rate, undermines your first point; I will take it that you misspoke). Anyway, it seems evident you are confusing the terms "Arab" and "Muslim". That is precisely a danger the title of this article should avoid. This article is specifically about the Muslim conquests. Walrasiad (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Walrasiad: You're making very bold claims, could you please show some sources to back it up? Especially the "most Arabs weren't Muslim at that time" bit. It's amazing how popflock.com resource users suddenly become world-renowned historians, and think their own personal opinion higher than that of an actual academic scholar. Look at the sources by me and LouisAragon up above, they all disagree with you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:58, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
@Walrasiad: Scholars routinely use "Arab" to designate the first Muslim state to emphasise its Arab character as opposed to later Muslims states that were dominated by non-Arabs. E.g., Hoyland, In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire; Collins, The Arab Conquest of Spain, 710-797; Starr, Lost Enlightenment: Central Asia's Golden Age from the Arab Conquest to Tamerlane. This isn't a case of mistaking all Muslims for Arabs. Srnec (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran. My claims are rather modest. We know for a fact that the Lakhmid & Ghassanid Arabs weren't Muslims. We know for a fact there were (and are) Christian, Zoroastrian, etc. Arabs during this period who did not participate or even fought against the Muslims. That should be enough to prevent this misguided attempt to rename the article.
As to proportions of Muslims & non-Muslims on the Arabian peninsula itself, that's anybody's guess, since we have next to no evidence. There's no reason to assume the process of Islamisation was instant on the Arabian peninsula, whereas it took many centuries in other regions to reach Muslim majority populations. While Islamisation is commonly assumed to have been faster on the Arabian peninsula (i.e. within the 7th C.), it was certainly not complete by the time of the conquest. Given in the chronicles that many of the Arabian urban centers (esp. in east and south of the peninsula) were taken by jizya negotiations, it is safe to assume the populations remained whatever they were, at least for a while. We have Christian bishops writing about the relationship between Muslim officials and general non-Muslim populations in the Arabian peninsula, and a general synod held in eastern Arabia to regulate relations in 676, well after the conquest. So the proportions are anybody's guess. For a brief survey of (how little we know) about the pace of Islamicization on the Arabian peninsula, I'd recommend Harry Munt's article in the recent Peacock-edited volume on "Islamisation" (2017, Edinburgh UP)
Remember, after the Prophet's death in June 632, practically all tribes on the Arabian peninsula, except those around Mecca, Medina and Taif, broke from and attacked the Muslims, some even proclaiming their own prophets (e.g. Tuleiha, Musalaima, Sajah). The common start date of the invasions of Persia (February-March 633), during which some of the revolts in Arabia (esp. south) were still on-going (indeed, the very initial ventures of Muslim columns to the Persian borderlands was to serve as an early warning device to intercept and delay anticipated Persian military intervention to assist the Arab anti-Muslim forces on the Arabian peninsula; but it turns out the Persians were not organizing anything, and the columns waltzed on in unopposed into the Euphrates, and that began that). So, by the timing, you are proposing mass conversions of the entire population of the Arabian peninsula within weeks. That doesn't sound very probable.
(Of course, the conventional dating of the Muslim conquests of Persia have recently come under scholarly challenge by historians of Sassanid Persia (e.g. by Pourshariati in her 2008 book), throwing the traditional chronology off and making everything even murkier.)
@Srnec. It is not about mistaking "all Muslims as Arabs", it is about mistaking "all Arabs as Muslims".
My interest here is clarity and precision. This article deals narrowly only with the Muslim conquests. It does not deal with Lakhmid conquests. And if the recent revised Sassanid chronology gains traction, there may be more shades to account for.
There's nothing wrong with the current article title - it is accurate, precise and reflects its content. I don't see any reason and certainly no gain from renaming this article. It only promises to make it murkier and confusing, and promises more quarrels in the future to rename it back. Walrasiad (talk) 00:15, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Walrasiad Your concern is modernist. While true in the present era, that not all Arabs were Muslims, it was not true in the first centuries of Arab conquest. At that time, when the Arabs rode out of Arabia on the backs of horses and camels, to displace the weakened and corrupted (east)Roman Empire. The Arab were in fact Muslims. The then occupants of modern Syria, Iraq and Levant were ethnic any Arabs then living in the area, were polytheists and in the minority, The first Caliphs considered Islam to be an Arab only religion, any non Muslims in the Arab forces that defeated Persia were either slaves or mercenaries. It has taken centuries, for the lifting of restrictions to conversion, and only reluctantly as it would result in the loss of revenue (jizzyah). Additionally, at the time of the first two Caliphs, an Arab was a person from, or had roots in Arabia. Today it is someone whose native tongue is Arab, hence Christian Arabs.Oldperson (talk) 01:17, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
More Christian Arabs now than in 633? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculously improbable. Not only in the Ridda, the Muslim Arabs fought against non-Muslim Arabs during the conquests of Persia and Syria. The entire course of the Muslim campaigns of conquest are not comprehensible, and cannot be told, without referring to the Christian Arab armies fighting on behalf of the Sassanid and Byzantine empires. Christian Arab forces outnumbered the Muslim Arab armies at several of the great battles, sometimes (if chronicles are to be believed) manifold times larger. Please take the time to learn the facts. Attempts to portray this as an "ethnic" fight are misleading when much of the fighting was Arab vs. Arab. Walrasiad (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

HistoryofIranTalking of opinions. References please that prove that the Arab army that invaded and conquered Persia was made up of non Arab Muslims. Or even non Arabs.The fact is that the army of under the command of Sa`d ibn Ab? Waqq?s, was an Arab army led by an Arab, thus the Arab conquest of Persia was completed at the Battle of al-Q?disiyyah. .Oldperson (talk) 18:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

@Oldperson: You've tagged the wrong person though, I was the one who proposed this move. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:46, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
HistoryofIranApologies I thought you were replying to me. I see that you replied to Walrasiad I agree with your ressponse to that editor. At the time of the Battle of al-Q?disiyyah the army was under the command and control of an Arab, hence it was an Arab army and an Arab invasion. That there may have been non Muslims and non Arabs in the Army is irrelevant. Alexanders Army and the Roman Army and in fact most armies up until the modern state were made up of military slaves (conscripts) mercenaries and of course volunteers.
But at that time in Islamic history, there were few Muslim converts, and the citizens of the Levant were in fact non Arabs. The ethnic classification of Arab is a modern affair and is applied to all who speak Arabic as their native tongue, regardless of race or religion.
I am not as well versed in Persian history as I would like to be, but I am always learning. My library is currently in storage, but I do recall that the poet Ferdowsi penned a phrase in the Shahnemeh that has been immortalized and repeated by the learned classes of Iran. It is a lament about Arab conquest of Persia are narrated in a moving manner where Ferdowsi himself laments over this catastrophe and over what he calls the arrival of the "army of darkness". I wish that I had access to my library, at hand, I would quote Ferdowsi's lament.
Meanwhile my SourceOldperson (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not sure Arab is any better. Maybe Calipahte.Slatersteven (talk) 13:10, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support -- Per WP:COMMONNAME and the given sources. I think Muslim conquest of Iran, which also complies with WP:COMMONNAME in comparison to Muslim conquest of Persia per Google Ngram Viewer, could also be a good choice.
    --Rye-96 (talk) 23:12, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - the ngram would appear to support the assetion that this is now the WP:COMMONNAME for the event.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I suppose "Fall of the Sasanian Empire". The article of the Fall of the Sasanian Empire should merge into this article. Benyamin-ln (talk) 14:35, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Please do come up with (reliable) sources that support this proposal. HistoryofIran (talk)
We have two facts: the first is "Rashidun Caliphate's conquest", and the second is the conquest on "Sasanian Empire". Neither "Arab" (which Arabs?!) equal with "Rashidun Caliphate", nor "[present-]Iran" equal with "Greater Iran"/"Sasanian Empire". "Rashidun Caliphate" was a state, but Arabs are an ethnic group. Benyamin-ln (talk) 15:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Your personal opinion / view doesn't count as a reliable source. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:52, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Requested move is not based on encyclopedic facts. Which Arabs? Which Iran? Iran Iraq War is an Arab conquest of Iran, too. Benyamin-ln (talk) 16:16, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Huh? I'm sorry, but are you sure you know what "conquest" means? I don't recall Iraq conquering Iran. Also, could you please show a source(s) that state that the Iran-Iraq war for that matter is known as the "Arab conquest of Iran" too? These are lot of bold claims. Also, please read WP:COMMONNAME. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
This article is about the Islamic conquest of Iran, not just Fall of the Sasanian Empire. Much of the article is indeed about fall of the Sasanians, but not all of it. Aryzad (talk) 13:55, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. We use the correct historical name for the area regardless of what the land is called now. I'm pretty sure WP:OTHERNAMES is policy, guys, and it's backed up by the fact that Siege of Saint Petersburg is a redlink and Conquest of Istanbul is a redirect. All this besides the fact that Arab v Muslim is a whole 'nother can of worms. Red Slash 04:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm not an expert in Byzantine history but I'm pretty sure that "Fall of Constantinople" is more WP:Common than Conquest of Istanbul, hence why the latter is a redirect. I dont really see your point tbh. HistoryofIran (talk)
  • Oppose Like what Red Slash said, Persia has been the historical name for the area. It is true that the land has been called by its inhabitants Iran throughout historical times. However, the entire contemporaneous world knew of this country as Persia. The Iranian government had to request other countries to recognize the name Iran only in 1935. What these mean is that this country has not existed in isolation and its history is intertwined with those of others. For instance, the conquerors knew that they were invading Persia and that's what was indicated in their records. Darwin Naz (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Pretty sure Red Slash's comment contradicted itself, per my comment up above. Also, what Iran was known as to the western world a century ago is not of importance, it's what is known by now that is. And the "Arab conquest of Iran" is clearly the winner here per evidence put up by me and LouisAragon. We have WP:COMMONNAME (not only is the proposed name more common, it's also significantly more accurate), which many seems to be ignoring/not aware of. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
According to your reasoning, the title is bound to change if Iran adopts another name in the future. Darwin Naz (talk) 01:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
"Also, what Iran was known as to the western world a century ago is not of importance, it's what is known by now that is". Interesting. So, by that reasoning, do you think we should refer to Istanbul and not Constantinople too, even when talking about the pre-modern city? Or Izmir and not Smyrna? Or Kolkata and not Calcutta? Or Mumbai and not Bombay? Or St Petersburg even when it was called Leningrad? That's revisionism. We don't do that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
What you say is Eurocentric. Why should someone care about the outdated western name of the empire? This is not the Western Wikipedia, this is the international version of Wikipedia. Iran is the only accurate and historical name of this empire; "Persia v Iran" is not the real problem here, the problem is "Arab v Muslim". Aryzad (talk) 11:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Why? Because that was its name in English-language sources until the 1920s/30s and the name used for the empire up to that time by many or most English-language sources even today. And this is English-language Wikipedia, not "international Wikipedia". Iranians can call it what they like in Persian-language (ironically) Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Well, we don't live in 1920s/30s anymore; as HistoryofIran said, "Iran" is more common in English language sources now. And English is the world language so English popflock.com resource is the international Wikipedia. The point is not that this is non-English Wikipedia, the point is that this is not Western Wikipedia. So the western name is not more important than the accurate (which is also a common name too) name. Aryzad (talk) 15:13, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Necrothesp: No, because Constantinople is obviously still known in modern sources as Constantinople in Byzantine and often Ottoman related stuff. Not revionism, but simply you misunderstanding me :P (also using Iran is obviously not revisionism, look it up please, it clearly can't be compared to stuff like Constantinople/Istanbul etc). Darwin: Making guesses about what might happen in the future is irrelevant, I'm talking about now, not 100 years back in time or the future. And as of now the sources clearly show that "Arab conquest of Iran" is a winner. Gosh I just love repeating myself. HistoryofIran (talk)
No, I didn't misunderstand you. I merely quoted what you said about nobody caring what it was once called in the Western world, but only what it was called now. That suggests you think other names should be revised. Pre-1920s/30s Iran is still frequently referred to as Persia in English-language sources, just as pre-1920s Istanbul is invariably referred to as Constantinople in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
"Revisionism" is a strong word for it, but there's definitely precedent for using anachronistic names for historical topics if they're the WP:COMMONNAME. An example someone pointed out to me recently is Prince Henry the Navigator. Per the article, "No one used the nickname "Navigator" to refer to prince Henry during his lifetime or in the following three centuries." Colin M (talk) 14:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. If they are the common names. Henry the Navigator is invariably called that and has been for many years. But many, if not most, people still refer to the pre-war incarnation of Iran as Persia. As is clear from the sources and the discussion above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Interesting, because the sources up above contradict you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Support There is strong evidence that the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME, per usage in books and scholarly writing. None of the editors opposing the move have attempted to rebut the WP:COMMONNAME argument, with the possible exception of Necrothesp, however I don't find that their counterargument has a basis in policy (it seems to boil down to the suggestion that most of the writing about this topic in English-language sources comes from Iranian authors, who should be subtracted from the WP:COMMONNAME equation because they're biased... or something). Most of the oppose !votes seem to essentially say that even if RS favour "Arab conquest of Iran", they should instead be using "Muslim conquest of Persia" because it's a more proper name for reasons X, Y, and Z. These arguments verge on WP:OR and are, IMO, contrary to the fundamental spirit of WP:COMMONNAME. Colin M (talk) 15:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Same reasons as Colin M.Oldperson (talk) 15:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is alright. Islam also changed the religious history of Persia but not it's ethnicity or language. Arabs and Persians also fought many wars prior to Islam, but this is more about a religious change in the country. All the scholarly research and studies published for centuries also used "Persia" first. Even the local Arab and Persian sources which later scholarly research mostly got theirs from use the term Pars and Fars meaning Persia, not the later term Iran--Persian Lad (talk) 22:48, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Hate to be that annoying guy commenting on everything, but this looks like more popflock.com Resource: OR to me. Indeed, no one has actually attempted to quash the WP:COMMONNAME argument. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:50, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
@Persian Lad: How come an Arabic term from medieval Arabic-language sources should but the actual name of the Sasanian Empire (?r?n, Irân) and the common English term used in the majority of English-language RS shouldn't be considered for naming a relevant article in the English Wikipedia? Besides, it was the Arab caliphate that conquered Iran, not just any Muslim caliphate. The use of the Arabic language was also spread by the conquerors, while writing in Persian (which had already been established as the main language of Iran) was abandoned for two centuries, and terms such as ajam were coined by their time to refer to non-Arabs, especially the Persians. So the ethnic Arab character of the conquerors was not unimportant at all, if we were to argue about that.
--Rye-96 (talk) 10:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@Rye-96: So actual name of the Sassanian Empire is important (which is important indeed), but the actual name of the Islamic Caliphate is not important? Aryzad (talk) 11:57, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@Aryzad: So the actual name of the Arab caliphates was "Muslim"?... That's not even the point; WP:COMMONNAME clearly supports this move.
--Rye-96 (talk) 12:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@Rye-96: It was called the Islamic Caliphate or the Islamic State. So obviously, this should be called the "Islamic conquest of Iran", or the "Muslim conquest of Iran". When the Roman Empire conquers somewhere, this is a Roman conquest. When the French Empire conquers somewhere, this is a French conquest, and when the Islamic Caliphate conquer somewhere, this is an Islamic conquest. WP:COMMONNAME also says: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources."
"Arab" is both ambiguous and inaccurate here. Aryzad (talk) 12:21, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
You could say the same about "Muslim". A lot of people are making claims here that have no basis in actual sources, primary or secondary. There are no contemporary Muslim sources for the conquest of Persia/Iran. Here is Robert Hoyland, whom I've already cited, defending the use of "Arab" over "Islamic":

I will speak of "Arab" conquests rather than "Islamic" conquests. Both terms are to some degree inaccurate, since the conquerors were neither all Arabs nor all Muslims, and the meaning of both terms was in any case evolving in the immediate aftermath of the conquests. Nevertheless, contemporary observers mostly referred to the conquerors in ethnic rather than religious terms, and even if some of the conquerors were not Arabs their descendants often came to think of themselves as such, and so it seems preferable to use the term "Arab," while bearing in mind that we are not talking about a nationalist endeavor nor an immutable racial category. . . Furthermore, if we use the term "Islamic conquests" we cannot distinguish between the many different conquests achieved over the centuries by many Muslim groups (Iranians, Turks, Kurds, Berbers, etc.). This causes much confusion among students, and among quite a few experts too, for it tends to be assumed that the Arabs conquered most or all of the lands that are majority Muslim today, whereas a large proportion of them were actually conquered much later, by local Muslim dynasties, of non-Arab origin, or were Islamized slowly by traders, missionaries, and wandering ascetics.

Srnec (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
@Srnec: This is not about the religion or ethnic group of the conquerors, this is about the historical name of that empire. The ISLAMIC CALIPHATE/STATE. Even contemporary Muslims like the IC/SIS use a similar name, because they consider themselves successors of the early Caliphate. Besides, the term Al-fath-al-Islamiah (the Islamic conquest), which is used by the Muslims themselves to refer early Islamic conquests, is not related the "many different conquests achieved over the centuries by many Muslim groups" at all. Aryzad (talk) 14:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean. If it had a name in the 7th century, we don't know what it was. Srnec (talk) 16:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm talking about all of conquests of early Caliphate. Those conquests are called the Islamic conquests by the Muslims. Aryzad (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
This is pure popflock.com Resource: OR. The sources contradict you, Aryzad. Which name you like the most is not of any importance. It is what the historians favour that is of actual importance, which is indeed the the proposed name. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:48, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't know why this is hard to understand: Conquest of somewhere by the Islamic Caliphate is an Islamic conquest. Like a Roman conquest, British conquest, French conquest, German conquest, etc. This is not about ethnic or religion. This is about the name of the empire. In Anglo-Persian war, the British soldiers were Indians. Do you think that one should be changed to Indo-Persian war? Aryzad (talk) 21:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Oh no, I understand you, just doesn't change it from being popflock.com Resource: OR and that the sources contradict you (also those comparisons don't make sense in this context). --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:15, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
So the historical name should be ignored and we should use another name because of the fact that it was used by some modern sources? Interesting!
I think this conversation is pointless. Read your comments again and see so many people said many thing but you only said "this is WP:COMMONNAME" and nothing more. Anyways, I'm done here, do whatever you like. Aryzad (talk) 21:47, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Well, WP:COMMONNAME is chosen over popflock.com Resource: OR per the rules. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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